There are a number of questions that need answering from Saturday.
If he was a doubt, why include John Afoa in a matchday squad if he was only going to play 40 minutes because of an injury? According to Pate Lamb it was a three-hour bus journey. What happened to player welfare? Shouldn’t there be a travelling reserve tighthead who probably should have been in the squad instead?
The whole incident at the end should have lasted a minute at most and consist of two questions. Is Afoa fit to come on, and if he isn’t who are Bristol taking off? Afoa looked like he was on a deckchair and had no intention of moving until Bristol had got their breath back.
Why wasn’t the melee at the end looked at by the TMO? Presumably because he would have seen the early shove by Bristol, the front rows coming up, and Bristol’s scrum half picking the ball out of the back of the scrum.
Why was Nathan Hughes involved at the end when he had been substituted? He was certainly quicker than Afoa to return to the field.
And a genuine question. Can someone explain how a collapsed maul four metres from the line can result in a penalty try and a yellow card at the first attempt but a collapsed scrum has several resets or penalties and no sign of a penalty try?
On a separate note, Chris, hope Bleddyn's funeral went ok today and that your situation improves, and thanks for keeping us updated thoughout the season.
What is more, the need for a tight head would not have arisen if Tigers had not already elected to re-scrum. The momentum removed by the Bears tactic was in part responsible for the problem at the final scrum, and was after Tigers we’re committed to that choice from the penalty.
I agree with most of what Brian Moore has written. It was a farcical situation. However, I am not so sure that Borths did want Afoa back on. He was clearly frustrated by Lam doing an about face and Afoa being suddenly not 'injured', hence his 'liar' comments.
Having been told by Lam that Afoa was injured Tempest should not have accepted Afoa saying that he was fit as per head injury. He potentially allowed Afoa to injure himself more seriously.
Seems to be disagreement between the manager and the coach and could easily be remedied by requesting the coach to sign the card being submitted by the manager. But surely the coach makes decisions in connection with substitutions and, therefore, why is the manager involved. Seems over complicated and open to what happened on Saturday
Not withstanding the last 10 minutes, Tigers showed that they have come a very long way since appointing Borthwick. Notwithstanding Bristol are not playing well at the moment, after gifting them 14 points, we pushed them within 3. Moore is correct in most of what he's saying - I said to the guy to my left when Afoa came back on "we're gonna lose this scrum now, he had us on toast first half" (if only I could have go the Lottery numbers right). I'm worried that a fair number of citings could come out of this, against Tigers; Borthwick for his 'liar' comment, Wigglesworh and Genge for the hands in the mele after the scrum.
I'm guilty of a few comments against TMO for not picking up the Bears scrumhalf grabbing the ball before it came out - I have been led to believe TMO cannot comment on anything other tan foul play. Now Dickson isn't my favourite official, but if that's the case, then it explains his silecne (maybe TJ should have seen it)
Thanks again for WRW, great read, best wishes with the personal issues.
Re the end, apart from the obvious, its annoying that Lams shenanigans resulted in 6minute rest for Their forwards, as much a factor in their win as, an offside or sharp practice, equally though I think Tempest bottled the last decision rushing to end the game.
I think the ref had two options once he had made the decision to yellow card the Bristol prop. Either bring Afoa back on as the team manager had recorded it as a tactical substitution or go to uncontested scrums if he was concerned about Afoa having an injury that would prevent him returning. What appeared to happen from the exchanges was that he (wrongly) allowed Bristol to dictate matters by effectively choosing which option they preferred. Lam saying Afoa was injured (true or false) and couldn’t return to the field should have meant the ref said it then would be uncontested scrums and a further player would need to be removed from play. Decision taken, full stop. The fact the ref then allowed Bristol to flip flop from one scenario to another once they had worked out the worst case scenario for them was the wrong thing for the ref to do - he was somewhat conned. It seems Afoa decided the better option was to go back on and it seemed he took that decision unilaterally once he heard the ref say another player had to come off. Lam allowed him to go back on the field despite the supposed ‘injury’ he insisted he had. I also think Lam more than likely told the team manager via his radio link to keep Afoa sitting in the hutch and not go back on so as to waste time and give Bristol time to refuel and regroup. Lam then made his way down to the touch line to waste more time by having the protracted debate with the ref.
Notwithstanding all of this, I recall a post-match interview by the great Martin Johnson when he said “if you blame the referee then you know you’ve lost the match”. Very true.
Great display by Tigers with much more to come as Borthwick moulds a team who in a year’s time will be very hard to beat.
Thanks for a great read each week Chris, as many times as WRW appears. The end of Saturday's game stinks, almost up there with Harlequins 'bloodgate' IMO.
Many thanks, Chris, for all your musings this season - and good wishes with any difficult times. My only added comment, apart from agreeing with much of what you say, is that it’s a pity Tempest didn’t see fit to dish out a yellow card earlier, since Bristol had had several ‘final’ warnings. Then the whole sorry situation may have been avoided. The real positive is that we were even close to getting the win, after so many past games where we would have folded completely. Onward and upward. Thanks again👍
Thanks Chris WRW is a fantastic product and I am extremely grateful for your insight and opinions on all matters Tigers. Hope things ease up soon for you.
There are a number of questions that need answering from Saturday.
If he was a doubt, why include John Afoa in a matchday squad if he was only going to play 40 minutes because of an injury? According to Pate Lamb it was a three-hour bus journey. What happened to player welfare? Shouldn’t there be a travelling reserve tighthead who probably should have been in the squad instead?
The whole incident at the end should have lasted a minute at most and consist of two questions. Is Afoa fit to come on, and if he isn’t who are Bristol taking off? Afoa looked like he was on a deckchair and had no intention of moving until Bristol had got their breath back.
Why wasn’t the melee at the end looked at by the TMO? Presumably because he would have seen the early shove by Bristol, the front rows coming up, and Bristol’s scrum half picking the ball out of the back of the scrum.
Why was Nathan Hughes involved at the end when he had been substituted? He was certainly quicker than Afoa to return to the field.
And a genuine question. Can someone explain how a collapsed maul four metres from the line can result in a penalty try and a yellow card at the first attempt but a collapsed scrum has several resets or penalties and no sign of a penalty try?
On a separate note, Chris, hope Bleddyn's funeral went ok today and that your situation improves, and thanks for keeping us updated thoughout the season.
I’ve never seen anything like it, and that’s why we don’t have to worry about it (as far as non rugby fans are concerned).
Try explaining the forward pass rule in 10s. You can’t. That happens all the time.
Or why the scrum half feed into the 2nd row. So easy to fix.
Start with fixing the parts of the game that happen all the time, rather than the ‘once in a blue moon’ stuff.
What is more, the need for a tight head would not have arisen if Tigers had not already elected to re-scrum. The momentum removed by the Bears tactic was in part responsible for the problem at the final scrum, and was after Tigers we’re committed to that choice from the penalty.
I agree with most of what Brian Moore has written. It was a farcical situation. However, I am not so sure that Borths did want Afoa back on. He was clearly frustrated by Lam doing an about face and Afoa being suddenly not 'injured', hence his 'liar' comments.
Having been told by Lam that Afoa was injured Tempest should not have accepted Afoa saying that he was fit as per head injury. He potentially allowed Afoa to injure himself more seriously.
Seems to be disagreement between the manager and the coach and could easily be remedied by requesting the coach to sign the card being submitted by the manager. But surely the coach makes decisions in connection with substitutions and, therefore, why is the manager involved. Seems over complicated and open to what happened on Saturday
Not withstanding the last 10 minutes, Tigers showed that they have come a very long way since appointing Borthwick. Notwithstanding Bristol are not playing well at the moment, after gifting them 14 points, we pushed them within 3. Moore is correct in most of what he's saying - I said to the guy to my left when Afoa came back on "we're gonna lose this scrum now, he had us on toast first half" (if only I could have go the Lottery numbers right). I'm worried that a fair number of citings could come out of this, against Tigers; Borthwick for his 'liar' comment, Wigglesworh and Genge for the hands in the mele after the scrum.
I'm guilty of a few comments against TMO for not picking up the Bears scrumhalf grabbing the ball before it came out - I have been led to believe TMO cannot comment on anything other tan foul play. Now Dickson isn't my favourite official, but if that's the case, then it explains his silecne (maybe TJ should have seen it)
Thoughts with you today mate.
Thanks again for WRW, great read, best wishes with the personal issues.
Re the end, apart from the obvious, its annoying that Lams shenanigans resulted in 6minute rest for Their forwards, as much a factor in their win as, an offside or sharp practice, equally though I think Tempest bottled the last decision rushing to end the game.
I think the ref had two options once he had made the decision to yellow card the Bristol prop. Either bring Afoa back on as the team manager had recorded it as a tactical substitution or go to uncontested scrums if he was concerned about Afoa having an injury that would prevent him returning. What appeared to happen from the exchanges was that he (wrongly) allowed Bristol to dictate matters by effectively choosing which option they preferred. Lam saying Afoa was injured (true or false) and couldn’t return to the field should have meant the ref said it then would be uncontested scrums and a further player would need to be removed from play. Decision taken, full stop. The fact the ref then allowed Bristol to flip flop from one scenario to another once they had worked out the worst case scenario for them was the wrong thing for the ref to do - he was somewhat conned. It seems Afoa decided the better option was to go back on and it seemed he took that decision unilaterally once he heard the ref say another player had to come off. Lam allowed him to go back on the field despite the supposed ‘injury’ he insisted he had. I also think Lam more than likely told the team manager via his radio link to keep Afoa sitting in the hutch and not go back on so as to waste time and give Bristol time to refuel and regroup. Lam then made his way down to the touch line to waste more time by having the protracted debate with the ref.
Notwithstanding all of this, I recall a post-match interview by the great Martin Johnson when he said “if you blame the referee then you know you’ve lost the match”. Very true.
Great display by Tigers with much more to come as Borthwick moulds a team who in a year’s time will be very hard to beat.
Agreed
Thanks for a great read each week Chris, as many times as WRW appears. The end of Saturday's game stinks, almost up there with Harlequins 'bloodgate' IMO.
Many thanks, Chris, for all your musings this season - and good wishes with any difficult times. My only added comment, apart from agreeing with much of what you say, is that it’s a pity Tempest didn’t see fit to dish out a yellow card earlier, since Bristol had had several ‘final’ warnings. Then the whole sorry situation may have been avoided. The real positive is that we were even close to getting the win, after so many past games where we would have folded completely. Onward and upward. Thanks again👍
Thanks Chris WRW is a fantastic product and I am extremely grateful for your insight and opinions on all matters Tigers. Hope things ease up soon for you.
Thanks Chris, take care and don't feel under any obligation to keep us informed, sort your self out first.